Lots of good points in the comments, and let’s try to address them. I’ve tried to quantify them all to keep this from becoming a raging inferno of random bullet points, so if I don’t hit on an item you’d like to discuss, bring it back up.
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As for the whole attendance argument, here’s what I believe firmly: a mid major conference does not have the zest it takes to capture the casual, walk up fan. These people just don’t exist in numbers, and this is a far more important point than agreeing to it.
The tournament has become an event in Richmond. Restaurant owners, bar owners, etc. all know it and reap the benefits. Not only does the city get involved and contribute money, so does the Virginia tourism department.
Just because the population base of the home city quadruples, it doesn’t strictly correlate to a greater walk up crowd. In fact, I’d argue your walk up crowd would be less. In these cities with pro sports and a multitude of other diversions, a mid major basketball tournament wouldn’t be much more than a calendar listing.
It’s the same non-attention fight Northeastern faces in Boston, Hofstra in New York, Drexel in Philadelphia. “I’m bringing the rest of the teams you don’t care about” isn’t exactly a crowd-drawing theme. This in turn devalues any sponsorship deal.
Or, let me put it this way to commentor Erik’s point. The top CAA teams in attendance this season: ODU, VCU, Mason, JMU, William & Mary, and UNCW. Towson, etc. doesn’t draw to its own home games–what makes you think they’d draw for the tournament?
Why would you move a tournament–one that is economic lifeblood–farther from that fan base?
MasonScott commented probably the most constructive idea I’ve heard: perhaps have the conference put up the money for a student bus to help alleviate the financial burden of getting fans to Richmond.
Monarch–I think you are probably dead on the mark with Scope being the only true alternative, in terms of facility. I wonder about getting away from the I-95 corridor for everybody, but that’s a level of detail not worth the discussion. My next statement is the one that frustrates people, but here’s where it belongs:
I’ll stipulate we will move the CAA tournament to Scope. Now, I need you to get after the city to offer Scope at a discounted rental rate, throw in cash, and whip the local businesses into the action. As I mentioned, picking the venue is step 1 of a 15 step process.
Sponsorship dollars is not as simple as asking for money. Just because the tournament moves to a big city, it doesn’t mean a sponsor will imediately sign up and provide big(ger) dollars. This isn’t 1998. Those kinds of discretionary income don’t exist.
I just need somebody to give me an argument that makes sense.
And so we’re clear in this entire discussion, I do believe the conference needs to go out of its way to ingratiate itself with the geographically outlying schools and their cities. I’m saying the conference tournament is not that means.
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EDIT: as soon as I hit send I saw Ryan’s last comment in the original post In Defense of Richmond. Well done, Ryan, and I give you the same challenge I gave Monarch above:
Now that we’ve decided it’s a good idea to move it and we have the venue and a sound set of assumptions that we can all buy into, let’s get to work. Somebody go get the city council, somebody get the venue people, somebody get the sponsors, and somebody go get all the other folks.
All I’m saying is our great plan, no matter how much sense it makes, doesn’t mean the people that have to write the checks agree.
Richmond writes the checks.
March 12th, 2010 at 3:53 pm
Shouldn’t it be up to Yeager and his staff to “get to work?” They should be the ones in serious discussions with city councils, venues, sponsors, etc., trying to drum up a real interest in hosting the event. I know they put out a “call for proposals” to the various cities, but are they really trying to work those angles? They seem to just accept the low-ball bids from the cities as non-offers, and then default to Richmond’s bid.
Also, Litos, what is Richmond’s motivation to make the necessary renovations to the Coliseum? Yeager’s bark seems bigger than his bite right now. The city knows he’s not really serious about moving the tournament, so why should they make the fixes?
March 12th, 2010 at 4:22 pm
That’s an important point that drives me crazy: the assumption is that because no other city has made a competitive bid that Yeager and the CAA administration doesn’t make enough of an effort to compel a decent bid. I can tell you with a straight face that is not not the truth. They have ongoing conversations with “the right people.”
I don’t know the situation in Norfolk, but I know Richmond’s budget is in a dire situation, with major cuts to programs that can’t afford them. No city councilman facing the prospect of having to close schools is going to appropriate funds for a bunch of basketball games.
We as basketball fans don’t like it, but it’s reality. It’s also like scheduling in the noncon: it takes two to tango. You may want to have Virginia Tech play at The Ted, but Seth Greenberg isn’t bringing that team back.
March 12th, 2010 at 4:27 pm
Oops–missed a couple things…
Also, it isn’t that they accept low ball bids and default to Richmond. They do the work, and have no control over low ball bids. If an arrogant polotico from any city thinks he can steal the CAA, it isn’t going to happen for every reason I believe it’s best played in Richmond.
And as for Richmond, the city…city council is hysterically pathetic. They have no motivation nor desire because of incompetence. They aren’t playing a game because they aren’t that smart.
That doesn’t change the reality of the building needing desperate help, and if it doesn’t there may be “that day.”
March 12th, 2010 at 4:28 pm
My last very simple post. Norfolk Mayor Paul Fraim is a man of vision…I hear Norfolk is planning on making a serious bid this time. Be guaranteed if they have the tournament in Norfolk no stone wil be unturned and it wil be a first class event from the get go… ie, no trash cans overflowing the next day before the next session starts.
March 12th, 2010 at 4:44 pm
I’ve heard that Norfolk will be making a serious bid, as well.
Selfishly, I’m hoping Baltimore or Atlantic City will outbid them. I enjoy getting away for the weekend.
March 12th, 2010 at 6:07 pm
Coach and Jay are correct – my understanding, the discussions are already going on and Norfolk plans to make a strong move to get the CAA tourney in Norfolk. Will it actually happen….I would like to think so, but don’t want to get my hopes up.
Coach if you need to get away come down to the ocean front and you can stay will the wife and I for a weekend and hang out on the beach – kids welcome.
March 12th, 2010 at 7:49 pm
It frustrates me that your argument comes down (in part) to this:
Richmond has had the tournament for 21 years, so they have gained the expectation of hosting the tournament. Therefore the local businesses and residents are used to having it there and thus support it. You’ve put the CAA into a paradox where their failure to take the tournament elsewhere is why they can’t take it elsewhere.
March 12th, 2010 at 9:09 pm
I am a VCU fan and I like having the tournament in Richmond for travel reasons and because I know the area well. If they move it anywhere, Norfolk would make the most sense because of “the walkup fans.” I guarantee you that Old Dominion’s fans will outnumber, but I can also guarantee you that just like Richmond, there are VCU, Mason, JMU, and W&M alumni living in Norfolk. In that case, “the walkup fans” will come in the same frequency like they do in Richmond. In all honestly it will not be the same if it is in Atlanta, Charlotte, DC, Baltimore, Phili, Atl City.
March 13th, 2010 at 1:59 am
Mike, I’m one of the few Mason fans who actually likes having the tournament in Richmond — if only for selfish reasons because living in the Richmond suburbs makes it incredibly easy for me and my son to get to the games and we don’t have to shell out bucks for hotel stays.
That said, I can’t see a way the tournament stays in the city beyond the current contract. The Coliseum is, as we all know, literally on its last leg. I can’t imagine great guys like Yeager and Bertovich and Rob Washburn feel too proud about hosting their league’s marquee event in such an absolutely embarrassing craphole. No matter how good the basketball is — and make no mistake, the basketball is very, very good — the ugliness of the arena hangs over the proceedings like soap scum on your shower walls. I almost felt like Mason’s beautiful Final Four banner was going to get soiled just from hanging in the place for four days
Here’s the thing: for all the chatter I’m hearing about Richmond building a new arena, I’ll believe it when I see it. The city is in absolutely no position financially to come up with the 150-200 million it would take to build a sparkling JPJ-like arena, and that’s what it would take to justify the project by landing big national concerts and other lucrative events. It’s similar to when DC spent 800 million to build the Nats’ new park when its schools are literally crumbling around the kids’ heads — in these trying financial times, Richmond’s leaders must dedicate their dwindling tax dollars to more important projects than a new arena.
Without a new facility, I see no way the CAA bosses can justify keeping the tournament in Richmond long-term. There are simply too many other options in this far-flung conference to settle for the mediocrity of low expectations. And the current Coliseum reeks of mediocrity — figuratively, and literally.
If Yeager and Co. were ever forced to look elsewhere by their “constituents,” the university presidents and ADs, you can bet they’d be carpet-bombing places like Norfolk and Baltimore with proposals and stats and figures showing exactly how well the CAA tournament would play in those areas. It has simply become too easy, too comfortable, to settle for what money there is in Richmond and keep everything right down the road from the conference office. As fans, we need to “strongly encourage” our university officials to motivate these men to step out of their comfort zones and get aggressive, so we all can enjoy the most fun four days of the year in a city and facility befitting an up-and-coming league like the CAA.
March 13th, 2010 at 8:22 am
Mayor Paul Fraim offered the Scope rent free for the Eastern Region boys tournament. He is sports minded and as someone stated a visionary. Norfolk has put millions of dollars into renovating Scope and people will be suprised how nice Scope is for an arena of its age. Also, hotels and restaurants in walking distance add to a fan friendly experience. I am confident that Mayor Fraim and Norfolk will step up and put a competitive bid for the tournament.
March 13th, 2010 at 10:26 am
Doug m – you speak the truth. Any restaurants/hotels near where the tournament will be played will know people are in town and will welcome us.
I’ll also believe the new Colesium when I see it. Is that like the baseball stadium that Richmond has been getting?
March 13th, 2010 at 11:23 am
Norfolk would be a step backwards, 1. even more remote location, bridges, tunnels, traffic issues at every turn, this would simply become on ODU affair, worse than the VCU situation now. 2. This moves the entire gig 2 hours farther away from every team and most fans. 3. Scope is the same age as Richmonds junk heap, less restaurants, etc. the Capital City is a better fit but no question the venue needs a major face lift at best. 4. Most of the larger members of the CAA started as commuter schools and just recently are becoming more campus oriented, I can tell you now, to move this event to a large venue in DC or else where would be a major mistake. The TV presentation looked good this year, mostly full, lots of good action, big fan response presented well on CSN as well as the ESPN final. I can tell you now, these fans are not going to do the $200/nite hotel rooms etc that would be the norm in DC and beyond, an empty venue would be a major embarrassment and would hurt the CAA in a major way.
March 13th, 2010 at 12:03 pm
You think Mason would have made the Final Four if the Regionals hadn’t been played at the Verizon Center in DC. You can’t downplay the lift, of playing in a tournament at home. It’s a huge advantage.
Norfolk is more of a sports town than Richmond and it’s manor is going after this tournament. We had 8.5K at Scope for the High School Regionals Finals last week. Had over 44K for the total attendance, isn’t that about what the CAAs did.
March 13th, 2010 at 12:20 pm
BigBlue–nobody’s arguing the merits of Norfolk as a sports town. But you don’t solve one of the problems people cite as needing to leave Richmond–the VCU home city advantage. All you’ve done is moved the advantage to ODU.
Moving the tourney to Norfolk solves the VCU home city advantage, but creates the ODU home city advantage. In the grand scheme, you’ve solved nothing. There are still 11 schools that won’t like this.
And I believe the high school states sold out the Siegel Center this weekend. Apples and oranges.
March 13th, 2010 at 1:16 pm
The point is, it needs to move around and Scope is a great option. Upgraded HD video board, new sound system, new lighting, newly redone seats, the restrooms completely redone. The area has more hotels, a very upscale urban mall next door and a ton more restaurants all within a 1/4 mile. It’s time to move, 20 plus years is long enough. Heck that’s longer than the Lady Monarch’s CAA run.
The Siegel had 7,500 last night and a very large part of that was from the 757, not the 804. If three of the teams weren’t from the 757 you would have half the crowd.
March 13th, 2010 at 2:49 pm
Unfortunately, I’m not convinced Norfolk is the answer. Better facility – check. Nicer town – check. Great fan support – check. Lots to do – check. Larger base of companies to pull from – check. However, it’s not at all convenient for the schools to get to. That will play into the voting. Also, I don’t think it helps you from a TV standpoint since it’s that much further from MASN / Comcast. Is it a better option, absolutely. It would be a much better overall experience for the casual fan. I live in Richmond and would make the trip (and I didn’t go to ODU). For those who will complain about an ODU homecourt advantage, at least Scope isn’t a few blocks from campus.
I’m not sure what the right answer is, but maybe leaving Richmond would get the city’s but in gear, although they lost the Braves and even though another team was lured back by a private investor, I still haven’t seen any movement on a new facility.
March 14th, 2010 at 12:53 am
Berto said, on the record, to my face, that once the rfp’s go out, that’s about it for the conference. if the schools want to lobby with local government, they can go ahead.
The people who told you (”the media”) that the league has ongoing conversations were very liberal with their definition of “conversations” me thinks.
March 14th, 2010 at 10:34 am
Norfolk? Come on, people…pick a city where fans don’t have to worry about their lives…
March 14th, 2010 at 3:31 pm
Shawn, Peoria, IL has a perfect sized arena, hotels, and it’s safe. I think that’s the closest city that I can name that fits your criteria.
March 14th, 2010 at 8:18 pm
@Shawn – so you are saying that the CAA should DEFINITELY move the tournament from Richmond??
March 15th, 2010 at 7:44 am
Erik…Richmond could continue to be a fine, centralized location in the heart of CAA country, but it definitely should have a nicer venue and location elsewhere in Richmond.